(a misattribution in the original post is corrected here) Harvey Friedman wrote: Virtually noone thinks that there is such a thing that leads to NF. (Do you mean NFU?) If you have such a thing, surely you can explain it *carefully* on the fom, at least enough so that one can get a feel for it. Holmes replies: I do not think that there is such a thing (known) which leads to NF. If I had such a thing I could build a model of NF. However, there is such a thing which leads to the comprehension scheme of NF (stratified comprehension) which is the same as the comprehension scheme of NFU. (It is perhaps worth observing that Marcel Crabbe has shown that SC (stratified comprehension without any extensionality axiom) interprets NFU; you can get weak extensionality from no extensionality in this context). Friedman asks for a "careful" exposition. This follows. We assume the existence of a domain of objects. If we are going to do set theory with these objects, this means that we are going to assign extensions to some of these objects. An extension (a bare collection of objects) is characterized precisely by its elements. We are presumably developing set theory so as to study properties of collections. A set as implemented in our set theory has an additional feature over and above its extension: when a set is implemented, a particular object is associated with an extension, so we have a structure which can be described as "an extension with a label" rather than a bare extension. The motivation to which we appeal is the abstract data type notion from computer science: here we are implementing an abstraction (collections of objects) with an implementation (collections of objects plus a "label") which has features (the label, and any relations between elements of the extension and the label) which are not features of the abstraction being implemented. Operations on the abstraction should not use accidental features of the implementation. Here is an example. Consider the "set" Delta = "the set of all sets which are members of themselves". Please note that this is not a paradoxical collection; it does exist in positive set theories! An object x will be part of the extension associated with Delta iff the extension associated with x includes the object x itself. We claim that the specification of Delta violates the security of the data type "collection" as implemented by "labelled collections". The fact that the label x is the same as one of the objects in the collection it labels is not a property of the extension labelled by x; this can easily be seen by observing that we could permute the labelling scheme, choosing an object y which is not an element of this extension as the new label for this extension and letting x label the old extension of y. Notice that this objection can be phrased before ever considering the question "Is Delta an element of Delta?" or the worse question about the complement of Delta (the Russell class). The paradoxes serve to reinforce an _a priori_ objection to these set definitions. An object can be considered as a bare object in this scheme. It can be considered as representing an extension (a collection). Objects can also be considered in a sequence of further roles, one for each concrete natural number: role 0 = objects, role 1 = collections, role 2 = collections of collections, role 3 = collections of collections of collections, etc. Features of one and the same object considered in different roles are related only by the accident of the particular labelling of extensions by objects used. So the specification of a property of collections can be regarded as respecting the security of the data type "collection" (or of "collection of collections, etc.) only if each object mentioned in such a specification is considered in exactly one of its roles in the specification. The problem with the specification "the set of all x such that x is an element of x" is that x appears in both role 0 and role 1 in the formula "x is an element of x" (or perhaps role 17 and role 18 -- in any event, in two successive roles). But this is precisely the criterion of stratified comprehension. The roles are of course related to the types in Russell's theory of types as simplified by Ramsey, but here they are treated (as the semantics of NFU requires) as different ways to view the same object rather than different sorts of object. Some support for this idea is provided by a theorem of Thomas Forster to the effect that the stratified predicates are precisely those which are preserved by all redefinitions of the membership relation by permutation (x \in_{new} y defined as x \in \pi(y), where \pi is a permutation) such that \pi and \pi_{-1} preserve sets, sets of sets, sets of sets of sets, etc. in a suitable sense. This is found in Forster's book "Set theory with a universal set", Oxford logic guides no. 20 or 31. NF is not motivated here because there is no particular reason to believe that we can ensure that all objects represent distinct collections. But SC is motivated, and thus NFU. And God posted an angel with a flaming sword at | Sincerely, M. Randall Holmes the gates of Cantor's paradise, that the | Boise State U. (disavows all) slow-witted and the deliberately obtuse might | holmes@math.idbsu.edu not glimpse the wonders therein. | http://math.idbsu.edu/~holmes